Okay, I know that this is ridiculous but I thought I'd do some research anyway. Kobe Bryant is 29 years old, so I thought it only fair to look at Jordan's career up to that point and compare statistics. This is just cold, hard data and does not reflect (obviously) their impact on other players and/or the era in which they played; however, it does show that both players are pretty good and are rightfully comparable up to this point in their careers.
When both were 29 years old......these are their stats:
KB:
21,619 pts (25.0 ppg)
18,864 pts (28.3 ppg).....without first 3 years (since MJ was in college....it wouldn't be fair to give Kobe those points, etc.)
4,590 rebounds (5.3 rpg)
3,952 rebounds (5.9 rpg)
4,002 assists (4.6 apg)
3,522 assists (5.2 apg)
1,086 three pointers (.80 3pg)
933 three pointers (1.4 3pg)
3 NBA titles. 9 time all star. 8 time all NBA. 7 time all defense.
MJ:
21,541 pts (32.2 ppg)
3,708 rebounds (5.5 rpg)
3,935 assists (5.8 apg)
287 three pointers (.43 3pg)
3 NBA titles. 8 time all star. 8 time all NBA. 6 time all defense.
Here's a dialogue (a few years ago) from John Salley who played with both players......
ON THE BEST DAMN SPORTS SHOW PERIOD:
*Chris Rose: Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan?
**John Salley: I played with both Kobe and Michael. I would have to say that Kobe Bryant is the better player. Kobe has a much better shot, handles the ball better, and just has more tricks to go along with his game. And just look at his career...he already has 3 rings and he's going for his fourth this year.
*Chris Rose: Yea because he's playing with Shaq, the most dominant big man ever, right?
**John Salley: Wrong. Playing with Shaq of course makes it easier for Kobe, but I don't thing Michael would have done as well as Kobe is, playing with another superstar. If you think about it, Jordan had someone who rebounded for him (Rodman) and brought leadership to the team (Pippen). Other than Jordan, the Chicago Bulls didn't have any real good offensive players. Jordan did the scoring all by himself. Where in Kobe's case, there's Shaq, who's another superstar that wants to score points, or else he gets upset as we've seen many times before. Kobe shares the ball with Shaq, and still puts up big numbers by himself, which is what amazes me. Kobe puts up the same numbers as Jordan did, and Kobe's playing with Shaq. If Kobe was on a team without Shaq, he would score 45 points per game.
(sidenote: he actually scored 81 in one game and his scoring average went up to 35 ppg)
*Chris Rose: O.K. You made some good points, but you agree that Jordan is a better defender, right? I mean, he won the defensive player of the year award several times.
**John Salley: No way, I don’t agree! Back in Jordan's days, you were allowed to put your elbows on the guy you were defending. Now in Kobe's days, even if you just touch a player like that, you get called for the foul.
*Chris Rose: O.K., whatever John. Well here's my last argument, and if you don't agree with me on this one, we're going to have to test you for drugs.
**John Salley: Man, shut up. I played with Jordan and Kobe. Did you?
*Chris Rose: No, but I do know that when it's late in the game, you want Jordan taking the final shot.
**John Salley: How can you say that? You just say that because Jordan made the game- winning basket on your sorry Cleveland Cav's team back in the early 90's. Man, for the next show, we should put a clip together showing Michael Jordan's game- winning shots and Kobe Bryant game- winning shots and compare the two. Jordan might have more game- winners, but Kobe still has 10 years left in this league, and he's not even at his best right now.
18 comments:
Nice Dro,who better to hear it from than someone who played with both? John Salley makes a great point in that Kobe played with another superstar scoring machine in Shaq and was still averaging 28 pts per game and winning championships. MJ had the dream situation where he didn't need to compete with others on the team and was able to do what he wanted offensively (thus the 50 shots a night).
MJ was great and he probably is the greatest of all time as far as a whole career is concerned at this point. I think what Dro and others like myself are trying to say is that Kobe at this point is just as good if not better than MJ was at this point in his career. Kobe haters like Blove, Blaise and Bags get on the "kobe hater bandwagon" without looking at what he accomplishes on the court. They look at his "alleged rape" charges, his cocky attitude, his waving Karl Malone away from the post in the all star game, his pre season whining, his booting of grandpa shaq from L.A. (thank you kobe!!), and everything else he does that annoys them and decide to hate kobe based on those things rather than admire his accomplishments and growth on the court.
I Love This debate, because it is never ending and nobody is ever right or wrong for that matter. When I saw Kobe play in high school and saw some film on him I remember thinking "this kid is going to be better than Mike." I didn't really beleive myself, but started to change my tune his rookie year when I saw him scoring like 1 point per minute and I started thinking he would average 48. Then we finally got rid of Eddie Jones who Kobe could have dominated in high school, and started letting him play. I realized right away that Kobe was Mike. They are essentialy the same player. Kobe mimicked everything Mike ever did even to the way he talked. Obviously when Kobe said his favorite player ever was Magic he was lying, he freakin idolized Mike without a doubt. Kobe loves Micheal more than anybody except for himself. This includes his mom, dad, wife, and children. He has jocked Mike as much as one person can jock another. The result? Kobe is every bit the player as Mike with a better outside game. The only real difference at this point in their careers is that Mike was better at getting to the rim (more explosive off the ground) and Kobe's jumper is better and more consistent than Mike's ever was. They are very similiar on the floor in almost every way:defensively, with or without the ball, in help, in the open floor, at the line. Its as close as it can be, but I personally give Kobe the Nod.
Where I think they are different is off the floor. I agree with Dro that much of the criticizm Kobe has recieved is due to the press and the haters wanting Kobe to fall on his face. I give Kobe a huge advantage over Mike in his off the court life to this point. The rape situation that happened with Kobe may have been what he really needed to get himself together. I really beleive that Kobe is a pretty good guy. The reason is that he obviously didn't know how to cheat on his wife and wasn't as good at it as Micheal who has apparently paid Shaq like hush money to keep his affairs secret. I think Kobe cheated on his wife, knew it was wrong, and has tried to walk a straighter path since. I don't know Kobe that well obviously, so I can't be sure, but I get the feeling he has turned himself around. The other reason is that Mike was addicted to gambling and had major issues with bookies etc. leading to speculation that his dads murder was related to his own debts. I think that is not true, but it is well documented that he has lost millions gambling. I don't think it has hurt him to much though as he is worth nearly a billion dollars. This response is a huge cluster, but I don't care. Just some thouhgts from TOD. When there were 5 Kobe fans left on the badwagon I was ranked #1. Signed, TOD #1 all time Lakers, KOBE and Magic Johnson fan.
The other debate: Who do Laker fans love more Kobe or Magic? I heard this on the radio the other day and it's not even close in my mind. Magic is the greatest laker ever. Kobe would have to win three more championships to take Magic out of the top spot.
You actually bring up a good point. Magic is another player that has been sheltered by the media and thus adored by fans worldwide. In 1980, after winning a championship, Magic demanded a new coach or a trade. Later in his career (while cheating on his wife), Magic contracted the AIDS virus and had to retire.
Both of these things endeared him to fans while if it was Kobe saying or doing these things...he would've been crucified.
Just another example of media bias and therefore fan reaction.
By the way, Magic is one of my favorite athletes of all time!
Dro, I guess it just goes to show if you are a Lakers fan and you want it badly enough, it must be true. I'm interested to know if anyone on here who is not a Lakers fan has a positive opinion of Kobe as a person. Or if there is a non Lakers fan who thinks Kobe is better than Jordan was. I'm just curious.
For me at this point, basketball is simply the lamest popular sport in the United States. It's completely irrelevant in my life. I'm just thankful for Baseball Tonight and the NFL Network to fill in the gaps until September.:)
I am afraid I am going to have to object. Not to either Kobe or MJ, but to John Salley.
For starters, John Salley played for the Pistons. He is biased. The Pistons hated the Bulls and Salley has been trying to establish himself as an LA dude. What better way than to build up Kobe and to dimiss Jordan.
Did Salley really "play with" Kobe? No, he sat at the end of the bench and watched Kobe play. For every John Salley you will probably find 2 Bill Wenningtons who will say Jordan was better. Also, at the time Salley said Kobe was going for his 4th next year. Next year has come and gone and Kobe is still looking for #4.
Salley does not adequately answer the question about Kobe winning championships with Shaq. He kind of switches the question to scoring average. The question was didn't Kobe win the 3 titles with Shaq, not whether he would have scored more points had Shaq not been playing with him. Incidentally, the year Kobe scored 35 a game the Lakers sucked.
With respect to defense Salley changes the subject again to rule changes. This doesn't answer the question as to who the better defender is. If I were to say that there were no good defenders in the NBA today because a zone defense is legal when asked whether Bill Russell or Tim Duncan were the better defender, I would be avoiding the question.
In the end I think it clear that Salley is full of it. Does this mean that Jordan is better than Kobe? No, it just means that John Salley is biased and fails to really answer the questions in an effort to establish street cred with LA fans and to denigrate Jordan's accomplishments.
John Salley is full of crap alot of the time and some things in this interview are pretty silly as well. especially the defensive comment about being able to dig elbows,etc. if that was the case, it would have been that much harder for MJ to score back then (even though the refs had 2 whistles when refereeing the bulls, one in their mouth and one in their rear ends). Bruce Bowen seems to be able to molest kobe or whoever he guards on a daily basis and gets away with it.
I do believe Salley knows talent however and I thought he made a pretty good case for Kobe. I still believe kobe has a way to go to get where MJ is but at this point in their careers I can't say that MJ was better by any means (as the numbers and rings show).
Blaise, for not being an NBA fan you sure seem to weigh in on the Kobe topic when it's brought up. It just goes to show that the kobe haters deep down inside truly admire his talent and can't seem to stay away from him. You also said the hip hop generation ruined basketball....Let me guess, Chad Johnson and Terrell Owens are your favorite NFL players:)
I don't have time to do the research but I'm not sure how you can compare the two by age rather than by their years in the league being that Jordan was busy winning national titles in college where he stayed and played for 3 years. Yeah, Jordan has a college degree too, add that to his resume. Of course Kobe came right out of HS (I think he graduated, not sure though). Touching real quick also on the good guy/bad guy issue. Falling out of favor with the media is one thing losing endorsements is quite another. Companies spend their money where they can get a return on their investment. This is determined by the company's consumers. If consumers as a whole will "buy" Kobe then he gets endorsements, if not then no sponsership. Although Jordan does not have a flawless history he never did anything bad enough to exempt him from millions and millions in endorsements, Kobe did (and still does). I'm sure the commissioner would have tried to "shelter" him as well but Kobe (as he does on the court) most definately wouldn't work with him and his rules to clear things up. All that being said people can change and we have seen some of that this year especially after the Lakers got Pau (most unbelievable trade in the history of the NBA!). I just fear that when things get a little rough or start going bad again we'll see Kobe's real colors start to bleed through. Love, Bags
Just curious why you compare them at the same age, rather than with the same number of years of play. Jordan's spotting Kobe a few years of play in your comparison because Kobe didn't play college ball.
Sorry. I guess anonymous made the same point. But still, that ought to be obvious. Should you compare cumulative career stats of someone who played 11 years vs someone who played 8?
Bags and Jim,
It's very simple. The only fair way is to do it by age. You want to compare an 18 and 19 year old's stats to a 30 and 31 year old?
That makes no sense but that's what you would have me do if I did it by years in the NBA instead of by age.
Chad, my hatred of Kobe has nothing to do with basketball. I just think he's a terrible person and annoying to even see in an interview. Basketball is only the public forum for him to display his arrogance. It probably didn't help that he caused me to start pulling against my own team up until the time I completely lost interest in the sport.
Chad Johnson actually doesn't bug me. I think he is very funny and doesn't take himself too seriously. He actually doesn't seem arrogant to me. Owens, on the other hand, is the opitome of arrogance and all that is wrong in professional sports. He's right there behind Peyton Manning as Public Enemy #2 in the NFL for me. Nice call on that.
I'm glad you guys made me do it!!!! I just took away Kobe's first three years (since it wasn't fair...right?)
Look at what his averages per year did....went waaaaay up. You strengthened my argument.
Thank you!
Oh for cryin. . . You included Jordan's rookie year, but not Kobe's?
At this point, I have no idea what case you're trying to make. Are you saying that he's more talented at 29 than Jordan was at 29? Or are you saying that Kobe scored more points/etc in his first 11 years than Jordan did in his first 8?
Just compare Jordan's first 11 years with Kobe's first 11 years. Simple as that. Is that like comparing a 31 year old to an 18 year old? Hardly.
You can probably make the numbers say whatever you want them to. For example, if the league average PPG for a teams was 98 during Jordan's tenure, but 88 during Kobe's, is an adjustment needed?
Was Kobe's womanizing less reprehensible than Jordan's? (In case you missed, it during the Escort scandal, when they were searching for client #11 in Chicago, or whatever, Jordan's PR team issued a statement that he wasn't client #11. Why did Jordan feel a need to clear that up?)
When Kobe can bat an impressive *cough* .250 in the minors like Jordan did - THEN I'll listen to arguments that he's a better player.
The funny thing about this is that I don't remember ever hearing a Jordan fan make the case that he's better than anyone else. It seems that the Kobe fans are insecure about it and for some reason feel like they have to make the point. Jordan fans (myself included) don't have to do that because they know no argument is necessary that he's the best ever. You can look at the numbers all you want, but it doesn't change anything. Anyone that saw Jordan play knows that he was about more than just numbers. He played with more heart and determination than anyone, ever. And he was the most competitive player the game's ever seen. There were intangibles to what he brought to the court that Kobe could never hope to match.
In response to the last comment - annonymous is right about Jordan not being compared to anyone else. That is what Jordan has going for him in this argument. Jordan was the first of his kind. He was the original. He established a new standard of excellence. He was a unique player that the game hadn't seen before. That's why it's so difficult for people and the media to replace him as the best player to have played the game. Unfortunately, the numbers don't lie. I don't know why Jim and others want to complicate the stats. The numbers are there, and Kobe is better. Sure there are differences in the league, the rules, the teams they played on, but Kobe is a better player at this point than Jordan was. And when the Lakers win the next 3 NBA Chamionships in a row my point will be validated. But I do understand that Kobe will never be Jordan in most people's eyes because Jordan was the first of his kind and Jordan rightfully deserves credit for that.
The comparison the true Kobe lovers need to fear is that of LeBron James and Kobe. Compare their respective first several years in the league and let us know who is or will be better. I think Kobe is a better player, but statistically I think you will find that James is ahead at the same point in his career. Of course, if traveling were still a violation in the NBA, Jame's stats may be cut in half.
It's hard to compare statistics though because there other factors that are not taken into account. Like style of play in different years, rule changes, other players on the team and so on.
To me Jordan is and will always be the best, he is the original as Cort pointed out and you can't compare anything to the original. Original songs are always better than remakes. Movie sequels are usually never as good the original. You see what I am saying.
But my opinion doesn't really matter, cause I hate basketball and never watch it. So maybe Kobe is doing amazing things but I doubt it.
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